Is Lying, in general, the key to all success and satisfaction

From the TimesOnline....

"Indeed, I'd go further and say that while dishonesty doesn't get the best of press, lying, in general, is the key to all success and satisfaction. At work, for instance, it's almost never productive to be totally frank in job interviews, career appraisals, and exit interviews."

This is from some guy by the name of Sathnam Sanghera. I know that originally he was talking about lying on your dates, but, I'm disturbed by this and others that I've heard recently that don't think that lying, like Joe Biden today, for example, is meaningful and is a "manner of communication you do to make your case effectively".

Is this becoming so commonplace that words don't mean anything anymore? Are we getting so that we say anything to get the "sale" so to speak?

I'm distressed by this decay of integrity. How about you.

Aloha... Tom :cool: shds; -rattus58

The state of the human condition could fill up ten thousand forums like this.

Is Lying, in general, the key to all success and satisfaction?

My answer is no.

To me liars are failures by definition. -Ace Coldiron

Honesty and Integrity. Need I say more? -Jim Klein

My answer is no. And I'll give you a prime example:

Our competitve dealer, one I use to work for and quit because I didn't agree with tactics, has and will do or say anything to make the sale. They will lie to the customer, promise them everything and deliver nothing. This has caused them to have a bad reputation with the community, and currently they are suffering the most through this economic recession. They have 7 different dealers, under the same name, and have over-extended themselves with triple mortages on all 7 lots. What is sad, is they are desperate now, so the more desperate the become, the bigger the lies they tell and the worst they do.

This same dealership, also is known for falsifying information the send to the banks. The create bank stubs, and paychecks to prove the customer's income. They have lied to the banks for many years now, and it just came back and bit them in the rear. All but 6 banks now refuse to do business with this dealership. 3 of those banks are what is called second chance banks, which means the deal with extrememly risky credit customers, and charge huge fee's to buy the paper for the deal. In a time of economic uncertainty for the car industry, having only 6 banks that you can possible finance through, really puts a hamper on how you can conduct business.

So does lying lead to success? Yes, if you are looking at becoming a successful failure. If your not looking at that then, no. -jrboyd

The statement itself is invalid, that can't be argued but betwen the lines is the suggestion that we lie or omit the truth when we sell, right or wrong ... valid or invalid?

If it was the implication I just stated - in other words; How this threads quote applies to sales - and I was handlign it as if I was a politician, at a town hall meeting, with other delegates ... and this question was directed at me, I would certainly wish and probably say (partially in jest);

"Can you ask another of my fine opponents to answer that one?"

Man, this is a hot potato. How does a trainer advise sales people to pick their words carefully without sounding as if they advocate lying?

I would not personally omit something that would end up with what would amount to a fraudulent representation of my product/service, company and support, as making a living as a professional salesman is too easy - so why resrot to illegal tactics? On the other hand, I might not suggest somehting that would have bearing on the sales, such as my competition having more experience in the prospect's area.

If you wish to call the ommission in the last paragraph a lie, I am guilty. what I am not guilty of is not providing that value I promised in a sales call. My word is solid.

If you still think this is a lie, it is hard for me to argue that the statment that started this thread is invalid. can you see the predicament?

It is not necessary to say you have contracts running when you don't, to get one going. Take the SMART program here in ontario, which provides $56,000 in Government funding to make business more effective. before we got our first (I say we, it is actually my client) we could not say we had done one. After we did book one (we now have done two), I was questioned about our expereince, I thus started saying and implying that we had expereince. Before we had I stated; "Well, we may not have expereince with SMART but this is all we do, we are tremendously expereinced in this type of service and have a large book of referances and happy clients!"

As sales pros we are the tultimate, think on your feet, SPIN doctors. We find a way to address what might become a deal breaker without lying or being fraudulent but, at times, by ommission of something we know. So how can both be true?

If you beleive in your company's ability to provide that which you promise, then you do no worng by handling a direct question of a buyer, such as; "Is there another company that has more expereince with process improvment within Automated Bakeries?" ... This way; "I am sure that somewhere in the world there is someone with more experience Mr/Ms _________, that is undeinaible. The question we are faced with today is; can my company deliver the profit improvement as promised? If I can direct you to these referances, I am certain you will see that we can .... here you see ..."

Now, if I knew that PVA Consulting (to pick one) had won a client that was a Bakery somewhere in my territory, that we had not done one in years, and I said "Yes" would I have been lying? I will leave you to decide that. My feeling is I knew I could provide the service, so the promise I am making in my meeting and contract is not a lie.

It is a tight rope we walk at times as professionals. How do we get the business and remain integrous? Do not be fraudulent, that is for starters. Then keep the buyer/prospect on point, which is "can my company fullfill?"

Good luck. -Gold Calling

Hi Gold... :)

The question I posed in "Are we getting so that we say anything to get the "sale" so to speak?" the point was essentially "does the end justify the means".

Now I agree with you that we should always spill the beans if asked. I'm not sure I would go with an omission even given a direct question.. that is why I felt that your

"If you beleive in your company's ability to provide that which you promise, then you do no worng by handling a direct question of a buyer, such as; "Is there another company that has more expereince with process improvment within Automated Bakeries?" ... This way; "I am sure that somewhere in the world there is someone with more experience Mr/Ms _________, that is undeinaible. The question we are faced with today is; can my company deliver the profit improvement as promised? If I can direct you to these referances, I am certain you will see that we can .... here you see ..."

was a great answer.

Aloha... Tom ;bg shds;



-rattus58

If that particular question is one that the prospect has asked, certainly the reply above seems reasonable. However, if you are substituting another question to answer in place of the prospect's question, than you would be avoiding the question. It is not a lie, of course. But there are many prospects including myself that would see through it. Politicians do it constantly on Meet The Press. -Ace Coldiron

Tom

One thing I learned early on is to always tell the truth to my clients even if it cost me the sale there is no better way to build credibility. I agree with Jim and with Ace, Honesty and Integrity is a MUST! Without it you are just another sleazy sales person.

Martha -MPrince

Hi Martha,

I am totally convinced that veracity and responsibility are ever so important to credibility. No creds, no threads.... thmbp2;

Much Aloha,

Tom shds; ;bg -rattus58

Ace, you would see through what? The fact that I can bring benefit to you or your company? Are you saying you can see through it as if I cannot, in other words; I am a fraud!

Clearly, my words are meant for affect. And from here on in please reader, realize that YOU does not refer to ACE but you (the reader). And I hope you can perceive what it is I am trying to communicate here, no matter how inept my use of the written word is.

Redirecting conversation is common. It is done through asking the right questions, through drawing attention back to what is important. If you, as a buyer can see the fact that I brought your attention back to what is important in your decision, to the reason why I am there, so what? The point of mastery of salesmanship is;

It is not see through, it is see.

Now, if I did it merely in avoidance - yes, that is amateur stuff. Knowing me, as little as you could from 691 posts in this forum, would you put me up to doing anything like that?

I hope anyone reading this will not find it boring that I am going to say this ... to me, this is tiresome to some degree. To continually debate various factors that affect the outcome of a purchase complex enough to have a professional sales person involved and that sales person's behaviour as it relates to whether or not professional sales techniques - what we do - are deceitful or trickery or slick.

The common comment we hear and read is; that does not work anyone more. Yah? Then it never did.

Professional salesmanship is just that; professional. It is not designed to be something you need to see through. And I dare say ... nor would you in the unlikely position of being both the professional sales person by trade and in a buyer's role with me presenting to you feel that you saw through me. Of that I can assure you.

Though I am far from perfect, give me some credit please. I do know what how what I say effects the buyer.

Look, if I stated something that I felt was not quite as intended (or missed the mark), I would confirm with you that it made sense to you. Giving you the opportunity to ask a further question, restate your original question or at least say "no". Then I would go back through the process of dealing with that specific situation before proceeding. Because if you are a pro you MUST KNOW; that the benefit was accepted, or; that the question was handled, or; that the objection was dealt with ... BEFORE proceeding. That is mastery of sales.

Please tell me I am not making this too complicated, as it is crucial.

Anyone can hash out the morality of lying, the psychology of lying or whether you should lie to get a promotion or a job. But, to me, the only thing that is of interest in regards to "the sales approach", which is the forum we are in at the moment, is what you do in a selling situation. And, without being fraudulent or misrepresenting your product/service or company, the only thing I can think of (and I have given this topic considerable consideration), as a methodology called a professional "sales practice" is omission, which - according to most dictionaries - can be considered a lie.

To be clear, by omission I don't mean I omit to tell a prospect of a drawback or flaw of my product that may affect their perceived value to the actual value received after a purchase - this is not only lying, it is fraud (though hard to prove). I would, as an example, omit to tell a prospect that another competitor might - at that moment in time - be in a more experienced position than myself or my company

Use this information as you may. Cut me up as I was cut up in the thread about targeting people with more money to spend on insurance ... call me whatever you want. My point is simple. If you include omission as a lie then there are times when you lie in selling. There, I said it, I feel better, do you?

Seriously, all humor aside, no matter how much you try and tell me about ethics and all that, your very livelihood depends on the outcome of the call. And, unless you are making great money or already free of financial struggles, sales presents moment that will test your integrity. Few people are perfect, we make mistakes. I have made mine - are you honest enough to admit the same?

Best of luck always. -Gold Calling

GC...if you are anything you are professionally transparent. You say what you mean and mean what you say. I believe when Ace said "I see through you" that is what he meant. There is no doubt you are absolutely true to your profession and true to your words. That is my opinion and I believe the opinion of many others. That is why you tend to ruffle so many feathers often on the forum. But don't change a thing! You are loved just the way you are!

Warmest Regards -MPrince

In other words you are anything but a "fraud"! -MPrince

Yes I am. You need to produce the good, the bad and the ugly to your client in sales. For example, one of the companies I use is rated A-, most others A+ or A++. Not mentioning this to folks would not seem to be a big deal, but many times if you are bidding or are insured by the Government, such as at one time the PBGC, Pension Benefit, Guarantee, Corporation, the organization that insures your pensions, required that when you closed out your Pension, you had to roll the funds into an A++ company... at the time most of these happened in the late 80's, guess who this was? If you said AIG... yes you're right.

Today, insurance solvency is (OR SHOULD BE) high on your mind and not disclosing something as trivial (99% of everyone I sell to isn't aware of Bests, S&P, Fitch, or Moody's) as an A- as opposed to A++ though still considered Excellent, is material to (or should be) the decision process.

I present all sides of a presentation. In my opinion, there is no downside of bringing up negatives unless that negative acts against the interest of your client, and if the negative works against the client (surrender charges as an example) then THEY BETTER KNOW ABOUT THEM!

Aloha... shds; ;bg -rattus58

I post from life experience as ONE person, not from a parallel universe. When I say I would see through it, I am saying that I would OBSERVE that you did not answer my (the buyer) question and instead answered a question you prefer to answer in its place. If I were the buyer, based on how I buy, I would want to back up and get my question answered. This is not from some textbook. It is what I do. I did NOT mention morals or ethics. I mentioned buyer behavour using myself as an example, and clarified here in this post how I would react. I do NOT consider reframing or changing a question a lie--only a detour that as buyer I would want to get back on track. -Ace Coldiron

What I meant was that I would see though the attempt to change the question in GCs example. It was in no way any reference to GC.

I made an honest statement. Honest statements can be accepted at face value, and they should be welcome on this site. I won't rescind or reinterpret my very own statement because it doesn't fit someone else's thoughts. It would no longer be an honest statement. -Ace Coldiron

Hi Ace,

I don't get too much, but I did get this, that is, I'll see right through it... like a cloud of smoke, which I've seen people use as an analogy for obfuscation.

Aloha... Tom :cool: ;bg -rattus58

Ace...you always make honest statments there is no question about that. I was in no way implying otherwise. I hope you didn't think that was what I was saying.

Martha -MPrince

Of course not, Martha. I was just clarifying.

A few years ago my niece persuaded me to attend one of those MLM meetings. I went and found myself in this luxurious expensive home replete with marble, white wool carpet, and a host that looked like he was from Star Trek. So I sat among about fifteen people as he gave a very impressive product demonstration and explained how the compensation plan worked. I raised my hand after a while and asked one question. I asked "Is there an autoship requirement?" (An "autoship" is where these companies send you a package of products for which they bill you if you don't order in a given month.)

His answer was "I have never ONCE had anything auto-shipped to me."

BUT that did not answer my question. It answered a question he CHOSE to answer instead.

It is a technique that I do not endorse.

I was not a candidate for MLM. But if I was, his assumption that I would reject an autoship policy showed me that he had some doubt about the appeal of his company's policies.

At the same meeting, another Type A guy was going around showing off a copy of his 1099 form from the company. I asked to look at it. I noticed that the earnings amount was typed in a different font than the rest of the type.

His company had a full disclosure of earnings to date (for every level) posted on their web site. I checked it the next day and found that no one in the company's history at that guy's level had ever made 1/4 of what was on that 1099 "copy".

NOW...lets suppose that company is a great MLM company with good products and a good compensation plan, and with a good opportunity. (Which I believe it IS) Does that make the tactics described above OK?

Not from where I'm sitting. -Ace Coldiron

Ace

I am sitting in the same place. I completely agree and understand.

Martha -MPrince

Here is where I must stand you up Ace. He did answer your question, very directly as well as supplying more information too.

Look, if this leader could operate without an auto ship requirement, which by the way is illegal in Canada and the United States if it is "required", then there is no need to be on autoship.

Autoship is a convenience - if it is a requirement it is illegal.

Now, I might have said the same thing but, in my case, I would have gone on to tell you more, saying that autoship is for convenience only, that most use it but that you can order when you want to - meaning you have a choice (as a requirement of the law).

Not all questions need to be answered yes or no. And, in yor example, the answer given did not duck the question at all. Seriously. It was not unprofessional through maybe not as effective as what was possible at that moment.

Look, we are misisng the point and the boat here. There is a way to redirect without SMOKE SCREENING, I do it occassionally to make sure that I keep the prospect on track. But I only do it when they are off track, if it was a question that was on track any form of avoidance is unproffesional.

Having stated that, you need to be careful when redirecting that you did not bypass that which was perceived to be important by the buyer (even if it is not). After all, it is not what we think that counts.

More over, I think that words typed in a forum are a fairly poor medium for learning. The time taken to make a point this way is far greater than a few minute conversation. Point in fact, we are still stuck on a minor exmaple I tried to provide two posts back instead of seeking the advancement in learning and comprehension that this thread could reveal.

I not only stand on what I said inteh last post I am profoundly aware that no buyer would not see through though you might simply see ... the way I redirect when I need to is masterful, packed with meaning. It is an eye ball to eye ball feel related teechnique that you can't always pull off no matter who you are.

No, sir, Ace. You and I as buyer and seller might have to go back, either on your instance or my awareness that I did not handle what was really bugging you or forefront ... the awareness in both of us keenly honed through many sales calls would warrant it no matter which side of the fence we were role playing. This - the confirming by a sales person - happens regularly in sales calls.

What happens infrequently when a professional is involved is ommition ... it is the only form of lieing - if it is a lie - that is committed by anyone with scruples. That certainly interests me - if you want to discuss it. -Gold Calling

I now spot this more often after learning about it's frequent use in politics. "His answer" did not answer the question that is clear to me but for some it won't be clear at all. That is part of the problem... different people can see the same things differently so it depends on who you ask. Ponder this, if she sees "IT" as a lie but he does not is "IT" a lie or not? -Seth

GC, I don't want to abandon this discussion, because the mild variance in our respective viewpoints can be instructive--off topic notwithstanding.

Let's make it clear that we are not talking ethics or morality. I think we agree that this subtopic in which I have inserted the word "transparent" ("see though" is of course a good metaphor) is about effectiveness.

I post with information about how I sell, not how some fictional salesperson talking to a fictional Mr. Prospect sells. I know you and I agree on that distinction because of conversations we have had in the past.

GC, I have NO issue with "redirection". It is part and parcel to what we do and NEED to do. But my redirection comes in a different flavor. I DO answer direct questions DIRECTLY, but I always follow with my THOUGHTS about why I have given that answer. My thoughts--like yours--redirect into the things we should be discussing to reach a satifactory conclusion for both of us. I DO NOT change the question because I believe it to be a transparent tactic that could be perceived by a percentage of my prospects.

I sell with an INVULNERABLE offer with an invulnerable presentation. AS SHOULD EVERYBODY. Now--let's clarify. Invulnerable does NOT mean invincible.

Invulnerable, a strategic term, means that if I am going to lose a sale, it will NOT be by my own hand.

Using a transparent tactic, or one that can be perceived as such, is an exercise in NOT BATTENING DOWN THE HATCH. Thus--it is vunerable.

BTW, GC, you play chess--think Nimzovitsch and profolaxis. Your great Canadian grandmaster, Duncan Suttles was one of the all time wonders of that technique. (To non-chess players, it means "over-protect.")

Now I'm really off topic (maybe). But strategy, as in my words above, should be an important aspect of selling. That's why I continued this discussion.

(Note: I use all caps to emphasize points--not to shout.) -Ace Coldiron

When our product enhances the need of today yet reduces the need of tomorrow do we automatically inform out client of the products deficiencies of the future in order to gain the sale today?

Being professional and an expert we understand about tomorrow’s growth and how our products fit tomorrow’s growth. When we understand this and do not inform our clients is that lying and cheating our clients?

When a client does not consider the future and how easy it is to add to the product in the future and we omit the information that this product is not compatible with other equipment and will become obsolete in a few years. Is this ethical? Personally I believe it is unethical. Not asked, do not tell policy?

When a question is not directly asked does not mean we bypass the question. I see no problem with the question and answer. Are there others will more experience? I am sure there are others with more experience however we are capable of providing the quality and service you demand and will receive.

My lawyer friend taught me a valuable lesson one that I do not adhere to unless I am in a court of law. If asked did you see Rich and Suzy today and he saw Rich he would reply no. If the question was asked did you see Rich or Suzy today the answer is yes unless he saw us both? All of us understand the real meaning of the question. We must understand how people really speak and as experts or sales professionals we must also know we are training our skills to hear what the real meaning of our clients words mean. Many try to hear and place a different meaning on what has been spoken by our clients. That is why we must ask for clarification. -rich34232

Yes. When do they need it? Isn't that the question? Don't we ask the client when they will need the product? Isn't that one of our pretty much necessary "who,what,when,where, how much and how many" questions...?

Aren't we convinced that WHEN tomorrow comes, we'll be positioned to be able to meet those needs at that time? I don't know exactly what you meant by your post above, but tomorrow doesn't matter except if you're planning for it.

The preceding announcement is the sole OPINION and BELIEF of mine, myself, and the numerous demons that I harbor and converse with daily for conversation.

Much Aloha,

Tom :cool: ;bg

Aloha... -rattus58

Selling a product that is not compatible adding future enhancements when you know that is where the company wants to head. When the sales person forgets to mention that the product today will be worthless in two years and will not help them at that time. If they want to grow they will need to replace the worthless product.

As an example the system you’re selling today works with their system and you find out that in two years they are planning on changing however need something today. The competition fits their system today and will also fit the system they are planning in two years. Do you omit the knowledge you have and sell them yours that will not work when they change in two years or concentrate on what yours will do for the next two years?
-rich34232

Hell no! You defer to your competition. Offer to call them up for your client if you have to. To not do so is the stupidest thing I think a salesperson can do. I've done this countless times rich, and am always welcome back. Screw them once, you're histoire.

Aloha... Tom shds; ;bg -rattus58

As far as sales go, I don't think you should have to lie because if you believe your product truly is the best, then lieing shouldn't be the factor in selling the product. If you don't believe your product is the best, then you need to find another product to sell. -ttdub

Interesting discussion! I agree with your post but I'm a skeptic. I can't say all, but it certainly seems like most will do whatever it takes to get a sale.

My biggest "problem" is that I don't lie in a sales situation. I tell people what I have to sell. If they ask me a question, I answer it fully and include anything that might not be beneficial for the customer to know. I know some see it as stupid and unnecessary to give more information that the customer asked for. All I can tell you is that I was taught to be honest. Not telling all or going around the truth is lying. -Cowman

You've drawn the conclusion that "most" will do whatever it takes to get a sale. However--YOU don't lie in a sales situation.

I have some questions.

What do you attribute your uniqueness to?

"Most" that post HERE would do whatever it takes to make a sale unlike yourself--is that correct in your skepicism driven assessment---or are we unique too? And if so..WHY?

I can't help thinking from your post that you have a rather dim view of the selling profession. -Ace Coldiron

That's kind of true. Actually, I don't know who is being honest here and who isn't. I don't lie in a sales situation but I never tell the prospect I don't lie. More on that below.

A super question! A very over simplistic explanation is as follows: I never got along with my father very well. We saw the world differently. One thing I did admire about him though is that he was always honest.

One example of many: I was maybe 10 years old. I was playing in the living room and Dad was going over some stuff. He noticed he had, several months prior, ordered 1000 gallons of gasoline for the farm but the gas company had never charged Dad for it. He immediately notified the company. In a nutshell, a new person taken the order and delivered the gas, but had never written anything down. He quit a short time after starting the job.

I'll never forget the manager there. He even offered Dad a 30% or maybe a 50% discount on the gas...I'm not sure of the discount. Dad said 'no' and he meant it.

Dad was always honest, always gave the benefit of the doubt and always did well in life. And Dad never said, 'I want you kids to take a note of this.' But I did take note of it.

I don't mean this to be personal but as of now, every person who has told me they can be trusted have all been stretching things a bit. Everyone of them.

No, I don't think so. I do have a very dim view on people though. That's not true of all.

I very much appreciate your challenge. Ya know, in all honesty, I'm not sure just how different I am from most. I have been disappointed in life though, disappointed from others who seemed trustworthy but, in fact, were not. -Cowman

Sales Professionals Cowman are not POLITICIANS. Sales professionals, businessmen and women, entrepaneurs, and generally anyone engaged in commerce of their own effort and making in my experience are solid down to earth people. My take on people is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than yours.

My attitude might be naive, but then if that is true, I've been naive enough to stick around and sell to people who are a positive influence on me and others.

I don't have a single acquaintence that I hang around with even peripherally that is negative. I know negative people, but we're not having coffee together, nor do I want to hear their story of misery this week or last. In fact, it is MY MINDSET to challenge negative comments right off. That's my wiring. I don't believe in negativism, it serves no purpose, and in my opinion, can't be proven to exist.... that is except in ones own mind.

Positive thoughts lead to positive actions. Positive actions lead to a positive euphoria. I have a card that is prominent in my briefcase... Smile, be Sincere, Take the first step. Norman Vincent Peale suggested, I believe it was him anyway, that positive mental attitude comes from the power of positive thinking.. and of that I'm positive.... shds; -rattus58

Yes..this IS an interesting discussion, and you are participating with candor--and I think that's a good thing.

But please think about this with regard to some of your comments. Isn't candor a two way street, especially for someone who has described himself as tough skinned? Would holding back some thoughts on another's posts be consistent with what you value in terms of telling all?

This is a selling forum intended through discussion to help others, and ourselves, to gain knowledge and insight. So I will make a comment, and let's see if you can accept the same candor from another as you expect others to accept in yourself. What I want to say is that, based on what you have shared here, I am probably much further down the road of success in selling. So, when someone in the early stages of selling security systems visits, and engages in dialogue here, I would truly like to see that person succeed in sales and in life.

Humor me for a minute, and pretend that I could set you straight on alot of things that would make your journey easier and faster. Some of those things would be tough to swallow. I see that all the time. So is the answer then to refrain from honesty and candor, and simply patronize the less experienced person? Who gains?

I have a feeling (candor again) that I share some of Tom's thoughts about your attitude. As a matter of fact, I sense self righteousness. You're on a forum of people who are in a profession that you believe contains dishonesty among the majority--UNLIKE yourself. Would it not be less than honest--the honesty you value so much (as do I)--for Tom or myself to hold back expressing those thoughts that question your attitude and beliefs? That is NOT a rhetorical question. My questions can be taken literally enough to prompt honest answers. -Ace Coldiron

Not much time but I want to answer your comments. I wasn't holding back thoughts on a previous post. The information was right there and for all to see. There was no need for me to use names. I think a good counter-argument against me is that the customer also often plays the same game in sales. Maybe they are being honest and maybe they aren't. Maybe the salesman is being honest and maybe he/she isn't.

Ya see! You know exactly who I was talking about!;co

That is NOT what I was suggesting. I'm saying that when one can be honest and do it professionally. Think about the people in your life. Are you more likely to follow a request that was done so politely or from the person who growls at you to do the job? The same thing works here to.

Again, nobody is asking you to hold back. The opposite is actually true. When a person is less than professional with their opinions/criticisms, they are the ones who are, in fact, holding back communication

You are right that I am self-righteousness. It's where I am right now though. Perhaps I'm jaded...quite possibly. I don't see a lot of people in life that can truly be trusted. I see crowds of people who say/indicate they can be trusted but, in fact, cannot, and/or are waiting for that chance to take advantage of an opportunity.

Are there good people out there? Absolutely! Maybe I'm just noticing those who are less than honest. Maybe I'm amplifying the dishonesty I do see. I can't say what is going on. I can say that is how I currently view the world.

Thanks for your reply. -Cowman

There are MANY good people "out there". There are also many who should not be trusted. There are life skills that we can develop which enables us to recognize both categories with a fair amount of accuracy. Not everybody develops those skills. Some have an underlying commitment which obstructs those skills, and often that obstruction lasts a lifetime and causes pain. Those are people who endure a continuing pattern of hurt.

There is a paradox among many--not all--people who express such a cynical view of their fellow man as you do. They profess low expectations of others, when in fact they have experienced disappointment with others only because they had high or unrealistic expectations. Many of them continue to live that paradox, and among them are the self righteous.

Obviously the answer lies in concentrating on what we expect of ourselves. Less obvious is that we need to know the difference between tolerance and toleration. -Ace Coldiron

Good people are out there, no question about it. Some are good and some aren't. Which are which though? xerm;

So, you're telling me that you do have those skills? I've met American people from all walks of life and lived their lives. I can tell you that most of those were good people. I can also tell you that (I believe) the vast majority of those people would take advantage of another if they saw the chance.

When I turn the TV on here in Las Vegas, one of the things that always hits me is the large amount of advertising attorneys do here. The general theme is: 'let me help you sue somebody that you think we could suck some money from.' To me, that is so disgusting, so putrid. It screams that something is very very wrong. Not many seem to have a problem with the commercials though. I believe most write down the phone numbers and wait for their neighbor, their boss, the city, somebody to do something so they can be slapped with a lawsuit.

I believe you are wrong here. At one time, I believe I did have high expectations of others. I remember a time when I expected people to keep their word, pay what they owed, or keep an appointment, or help without being asked. Recently though, my expectations have been low, very low. Unfortunately, even those low expectations are sometimes not met.

Being self-critical of myself, I believe much of my distrust of people comes from living in Japan for 10 years. I had a contract but it wasn't really needed. I trusted the employer and they trusted me. One's word is, for the most part, golden. People left their doors unlocked, they left valuables unattended, customer service was top-notch, etc.

I'm being oversimplistic here but for the most part the above is true. Bad things do happen in Japan and the trend is that it is moving towards it having western problems.

Please dont' suggest I go back to Japan. America is home. I'm telling the above story because when I compare the two countires on honesty and trust, it is blatently obvious that something is very very wrong here.

I admire your views on life and very much hope it never changes. Realistic or not, you are where many of us would like to be. -Cowman

By Cowman.....

"So, you're telling me that you do have those skills? I've met American people from all walks of life and lived their lives. I can tell you that most of those were good people. I can also tell you that (I believe) the vast majority of those people would take advantage of another if they saw the chance."

I categorically reject this assumption of yours. I don't know what circles you frequent/associate but of the THOUSANDS of people I've known and of the several thousand direct clients I personally service each and every day, that this is as far from reality as you can get.

Yes there are those that will take advantage of others and if that number exceeds 5% in a NORMAL SAMPLING, I'd be stunned. I'd be stunned if that number would even be that high in sampling PROFESSIONALS, not politicians.... :)

I'm sorry Cowman, whatever in life has jaded you, it has really TWISTED YOUR PSYCHE. If you continue this allusion, you're going to have a rough time of for your remaining years.

Aloha... Tom shds; ;bg


-rattus58

We simply and politely disagree. That's OK. Perhaps my perception will change in the future...and perhaps yours will change. Again, I hope yours stays the way it is now.

I doubt mine changes but I leave the door open and hope it changes. As of right now though, except for some family and a few close friends, I trust nobody. I trust nobody because over and over and over and over again, if the opportunity arises, those people who say they can be trusted....in fact, can't be trusted.

Thanks for the discussion. I've enjoyed it. -Cowman

quote=Cowman;42090 We simply and politely disagree. That's OK. Perhaps my perception will change in the future...and perhaps yours will change. Again, I hope yours stays the way it is now.

I doubt mine changes but I leave the door open and hope it changes. As of right now though, except for some family and a few close friends, I trust nobody. I trust nobody because over and over and over and over again, if the opportunity arises, those people who say they can be trusted....in fact, can't be trusted.

Thanks for the discussion. I've enjoyed it.

Cowman.... let me be CLEAR. We don't POLITELY disagree on this issue. We COMPLETELY AND CATEGORICALLY DRISAGREE on this issue/point. People are INHERENTLY HONEST AND GOOD.

I'm leaving you now to simmer in your perceived or even experienced cauldron of inequity. Here is how I view this..

I've asked you for your trust, but that you've quickly slain
You said I've nothing to fear, then why have I such pain
Everywhere I turn, the hooded goblins lurk
My God what has become me, I cannot even work.


Aloha... shds; ;bg -rattus58

My apologies! I'm able to accept other viewpoints and politely disagree. I'm sorry that you are unable to do so. Perhaps I'm not the one living in the depths of despair after all!

And I am leaving you to simmer in your perceived or even experienced cauldron of inequity. ;bg

??? Whatever though! -Cowman

Yup... you're right. I'm not able to politely disagree with your condemnation of the human race. You've indicted the "VAST MAJORITY" of people as being dishonest, opportunistic, capable of avarice, and predisposed to take advantage of others whenever circumstances originate.

Let me put it this way; You're presumably in sales; presumably engaged in the preeminant occupation of interaction with people. This is an occupation of discourse, persuasion, understanding, and cooperation. When you decided to paint all others except your immediate family and close friends as being dishonest and incapable of pure interest and reciprocity... (words I learned here), you tainted your entire marketplace.

Here is a word of suggestion meant to be given in the most respectful manner I can muster.... Cowman, the most charitable thing one can offer you is a walk off the plank. If you cannot, will not, won't, look at the world through proper lenses rather than your blinders, you need to do yourself a favor and get a job driving a truck, or working on an assemblyline where everything you deal with is what it is, of course if you have to buy a truck, you'd best better be watching out for that salesman I mean after all....

Aloha.... shds; ;bg -rattus58

Can't condemn a man for laying bare his soul, Tom. Can't condemn a man for being open, honest, and willing to share what he believes, whether his views at the moment coincide with ours or not.

I find those traits refreshing on this forum. I have no way of really knowing, but I don't think Cowman is posting to attract attention, stir debate, or crying for help--I could be wrong.

It's a complex world, and I like a person who is willing to say what he/she believes--not just what sounds good. I hope Cowman stays and grows, and I hope we grow too. -Ace Coldiron

You are right that I'm not looking to "attract attention, stir debate, or crying for help". My plan was to sit back and listen. I'm not quite sure what happened here!;co

Rattus, you've disappointed me. You painted yourself as being this nice, wonderful, charming person. And yet, you can't politely disagree with another view/opinion. I learned long ago that people have different experiences. People believe as they do for reasons. You seem to have an attitude that only you know the truth. You don't and neither do I.

Can you be trusted? I honestly don't know. When a person tells another "the most charitable thing one can offer you is a walk off the plank." it's troubling. You are wishing me the worst because I disagree with your view on life. I sincerely wish you only the best.

Which is sadder: not trusting people, or being unable to respect an opinion/view that is different from one's own? Personally, my choice is neither. Rather, it's simply where life has currently taken us.

I do know where you are coming from here. There was a time in my life, not so many years ago, when I more or less had the same views that you currently hold. Those views have changed and again, they have changed for genuine and valid reasons.

Again, my apologies on presuming you were able to politely disagree. I can assure you that I do politely disagree with you though. I've enjoyed this little debate. Best wishes.

Finally, I genuinely hope your views on life don't change. -Cowman

Ace,

I hope that Cowman sticks it out as well. This profession of ours is the most dynamic profession there is, the most rewarding of professions, and is also the most important of professions related to the commerce of goods and services. But it requires a certain trust of your market.

That being said, in every post, Cowman has indicated that he distrusts his market. In his replies he starts out giving support to, yours mostly, to ideas of tolerance, then swerves strongly into this negative rhetoric in closing.

Now, I admit, I'm looking for positive responses in his post replies and find morsels of openmindedness but then closes with negativism reigning.

Much Aloha,

Tom shds; ;bg -rattus58

Cowman.... Let me say this...

1) I'm not painting myself to be anything other than who I am.
2) I'VE NOT ASKED YOU TO TRUST ME.
3) I'm presenting MY OPINION... These belong to me alone. They are mine. I own them separately and without debt.
4) I've presented myself to you as one who over 50 years has come to certain conclusion respecting people and their behavior, and it is absolutely counter to yours.
5) Lastly, if you are going to quote me, quote me entirely, not a snippet without context... such as your walk the plank reference.

Here is my prescription for us to be able to communicate. First, don't announce with certainty that I wouldn't be telling you this face to face, because, chum, I would.

Second, express what it is you are looking for here. If it is sympathy, this is the wrong venue. If it is for empathy, you are not getting it from me, for we seemingly have nothing to empathize about. If it is for betterment, then state it.

If the people around you are negative, you have two choices... stay or leave. If you stay, you will be forever in their influence. If you leave, you can break free. You don't pay too much attention to what is posted, I've noticed as well. If you wish to learn, you need to accept. Now I don't know if your mindset is so negative and distrustful that you won't even accept advise without reservation, but if you are, I don't think anyone here is going to be able to help you. First of all, there is no couch.

MY OPINION'S AGAIN....

Cowman, the only reason I even respond to you is that I'd like to see you succeed. But challenge me and you'll be countered as strenuously as I can to assert MY BELIEFS. You mention the word debate. If you wish to debate then please do so, and in the interest of closing this chasm, I am challenging you to debate and I'm challenging you with this...

You say that everytime someone has asked you to trust them, they have disappointed you. Please elaborate how this goes down in your day to day activities, because most of whom we do business with expect us to trust them. I use a cleaners to do my shirts and ties. I trust them to do a good job. I buy a hamburger, I expect the kitchen to be free of vermin, disease, and trust the cook won't be spitting into my sandwich. When I buy gasoline, I trust that the gallonage counter is accurate. When I go to the farmers market, I trust that the scales are accurate for trade. When I talk to a businessman/women I trust that our interaction is leading to a positive conclusion.

I'm not sure who said it, whether Norman Vincent Peale or Samuel Clement Stone, or someone else, but you cannot expect to grow if your nourishment is lacking, and you can grow in only one medium, and that is one of positive thinking. If you are in a marriage where your spouse is negative... you have to get out, or you will not grow. If you are in the service of a negative company, you have to get out if you expect to grow. If you are in the circle of negative friends, you have to get out if you expect to grow.

I've stated before, that part of my belief system is one of positive thinking and outlook. I don't accept the negative and generally will avoid it at all cost. You attitude is also one of negativism, so if we are all speaking candidly here, how do you want your life to be? Positive or Negative?

If you are willing to break out of your cocoon of self imposed disappointment of the human race, this place will provide you with a wealth of benefits that all can benefit by and to which I will testify.

Aloha... shds; ;bg -rattus58

I agree with all you said above. Yep, #1, 2, 3, 4 are my opinions too. We have something in common! Super, huh?msnwnk;

Sorry but unless board rules say otherwise, (Webbie???) I will quote people in the accepted and standard way. The quote I made was very fair and not misleading. That's what you said. So again, unless Webbie or even general consensus says otherwise, my quoting will remain the same.

My most sincere apologies! I agree that some simply do not have the social skills to convey things a bit more politely. Most though, do tend to hide behind their computer monitors.

Since you gave a prescription for communication, here is mine: Just accept my opinion and views and have fun pointing out my errors or where I've been mislead. I've easily accepted and respected your views and very much enjoy fun debate.

I not quite sure how you came up with this but as I said above, , I expect absolutely and without pretense, no sympathy. I simply stated my views. It does appear that you have (incorrectly) extrapolated my intentions. ...Get sympathy from a message board??? No...maybe some people use message boards to get sympathy in certain situations. Maybe??? Thanks for your concern though!

Super advise! Are you sure you aren't going to charge me for that wisdom? If your advise is truly free, thanks so much. .......Hey, wait a minute...those were my only two choices all along! You are a true salesman!msnwnk;

Well thanks! That means a lot to me coming from a message board and from a person I've never met in my life. Your wishes are appreciated though and my same wishes go out to you.

Oh oh, we have been more in agreement than either of us realized. I also trust people in my everyday life to wash my shirts, have high quality food, getting what I pay for in gasoline, etc. Yeah, I trust that sort of thing. That's easy.

I believe I stated it before, but just in case: my lack of trust comes in when people are truly tested. If the opportunity to sue comes up, it appears that people do so. If one goes to the doctor and believe the Dr. made a mistake, most will start legal proceedings. Contracts have become long and complicated to protect the seller/employer. If it's not written down and people have the opportunity, they will say, 'ahh, but it isn't written in the contract. On the other side, an employer or retailer will listen to a complaint and say, 'but you see right here, it's written in the contract.'

We actually agree on the above. I too avoid those who are less than optimistic in their outlooks on life. With that said, I'm sure that some of my thoughts come across as being negative. From my perspective though, they are reality. I try to avoid negative ism but I don't try to avoid reality.

I'm sure this place will be beneficial. I'm not sure as to how much of that help will be coming from you but your thoughts and advise are appreciated all the same.

Again, I respect and honor your beliefs and outlooks. I'm even envious of you. I will remain as positive as possible. I'll also continue to live in the real world and acknowledge the good with the bad.

Again, the very best of wishes. -Cowman

Just for my own clarification, Cowman, just what kind of business are you engaged in again?

Aloha.... Tom :cool: -rattus58

Gentlemen, I'm going to don my moderator's hat and ask that this bantering back and forth start heading into a discussion involving sales or cease. You can PM the other stuff to your heart's content. -Ace Coldiron

Advise taken!;sm I kinda thought this did have to do with sales though? This has gone as far as it can go anyway. Even so, I take your advise. Thanks. -Cowman

I sell cows! You know, the animals that go "moooo" -Cowman

I find that lying to make a sale is equal to drinking seawater if stranded at sea. It may satisfy your immediate need for relief but ultimately speeds up the process of killing you. The common key to success in almost all sales is positioning your product or service correctly, satisfying a need, or perceived need, then following up to maintain the opportunity and farm new opportunities within the sale either via referrals or additional business. None of these objectives are accomplished by lying.... -rjakini