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Turn Down That Sale

I had to turn down that sale four times to get it. That is a fact.

The first three times Jeff came to me in tentative and toddling steps with a little curiosity I answered him politely and told him to come back when he was ready to commit. That happened three times.

The forth time he contacted me and said he was ready. Going into the third month he's using our products, reordering, has become a distributor, AND has introduced me to a friend who may use the same product. Also, he's beginning to get a better feel for the business.

Today I talked with him and he said: Trust is everything. That's why I'm doing business with you. Old fashioned push and pull them is out. You respected me. That's why I respected you.

That is a fact! It took turning down a sale three times until the sale was certain for it to happen. When that commitment was made by Jeff I did a complete presentation objection, stress and building rapport free.

Thoughts?

MitchM - by MitchM
I had to turn down that sale four times to get it. That is a fact.

The first three times Jeff came to me in tentative and toddling steps with a little curiosity I answered him politely and told him to come back when he was ready to commit. That happened three times.

The forth time he contacted me and said he was ready. Going into the third month he's using our products, reordering, has become a distributor, AND has introduced me to a friend who may use the same product. Also, he's beginning to get a better feel for the business.

Today I talked with him and he said: Trust is everything. That's why I'm doing business with you. Old fashioned push and pull them is out. You respected me. That's why I respected you.

That is a fact! It took turning down a sale three times until the sale was certain for it to happen. When that commitment was made by Jeff I did a complete presentation objection, stress and building rapport free.

Thoughts?

MitchM
I'm happy for you that you made the sale. That's fantastic! Happy customers are the best.

MitchM, Iin reading your post, I'm wondering if you believe selling is disrespectful.

Skip - by Skip Anderson
You miss the point, Skip. That surprises me. Why don't you ever contribute food for thought, conversation that opens up discussion, and experiences that either challenges or illuminates or contrasts what I post?

You don't have to be happy for me - that wasn't the point and a funny reply from you. But I appreciate your sincerity in that and expect you would be equally happy for the success of any sales force or individual you would be working with - success makes one happy.

Selling can be respectful or disrespecful depending on how it's done - you know that I think - and it can be done either way in many ways. If you're asking me if I believe selling is disrespectful as an activity of course NOT - just the opposite. It's how I make my living and have a business that spans the USA from coast to coast and is in a few other countries. Today and yesterday I assisted in sales calls - this morning I attended BNI which is about sales.

Help me out, Skip - why does your question come to mind in reading my post? What in it formed that question? Your answer might illuminate a discussion.

MitchM

Your question makes no sense at all, Skip. - by MitchM
You miss the point, Skip. That surprises me. Why don't you ever contribute food for thought, conversation that opens up discussion, and experiences that either challenges or illuminates or contrasts what I post?
I believe I have done all of those things, MitchM, but my sense is that you're not interested in reading and understanding those post, you're more interested in posting.

Help me out, Skip - why does your question come to mind in reading my post? What in it formed that question? Your answer might illuminate a discussion.

MitchM

Your question makes no sense at all, Skip.
I'd have to agree, MitchM, in rereading your post, I think my question doesn't make sense in reply to your post. So I guess maybe I was thinking about your posts in general, rather than that specific post. Or maybe it was a post earlier in this thread (but I'm just guess, I didn't go look). - by Skip Anderson
"I'd have to agree, MitchM, in rereading your post, I think my question doesn't make sense in reply to your post. So I guess maybe I was thinking about your posts in general, rather than that specific post. Or maybe it was a post earlier in this thread (but I'm just guess, I didn't go look)." -- Skip

I can appreciate that honest answer because it's the truth - nothing in my post would lead to that general question. I totally esteem in high regard sales as a profession when executed well with trust and respect and integrity. It's what I do.

Maybe a starting point in a conversation would be what in any of my posts would lead you to ask that question. How do you see something specifically or in general I've said that measured against what you believe would cause you to question my regard of sales?

MitchM - by MitchM
The takeaway is a very effective sales technique Mitch, it is as old as time. Good to see you using it effectively.

And, through the addition of a fact, that being you are involved in Network Marketing (often called MLM or Multi Level Marketing), an area that I am also a considered an expert in (See newsstand magazine article, April '01; "He made a fortune discovering how to service an entire industry"), it makes sense why you used the takeaway without attempting a close on the first meeting.

In traditional sales (TradSales), if I may separate Network Marketing sales (NMSales) in this some what over simplified way, the takeaway would be used but you would still be looking for a close during that meeting. Interesting, is it not?

The main reason why you are more likely to "turn down" or use "takeaway" the way you did is; a prospective distributor in Network Marketing you most valuable asset time and you have to train recruits, which is time consuming. Naturally, you want to make sure you are training someone who is serious. Having said that, just because they come back and say they are serious is no guarantee that are willing "to do whatever it takes to succeed". Only time will tell.

The NMSales industry is full of people who are "flash in the pan". They come in there is activity in the beginning with the few people they know well, then when the reality of harder prospecting times hits 'em they quit.

Network Marketing is like recruiting a volunteer army. You cannot conscript nor should you pressure, there is really not much benefit from the initial sale (unless the person selling is involved in front-end loading techniques, a practice I and dubious about to say the least). The real money is made when a "volunteer" goes out and gets repeat customers and more importantly recruits others. It is a business of duplication.

In TradSales leaving without the order in the great majority of cases would have been considered a mistake, which may be why Skip initially did not quite realize what your thread is really about.

I an a great believer in NMSales. I have been one of its largest supporters online since 1997, when I started Network Marketing News, which grew to 44,000 subscribers (this was prior to the publication of Permission Marketing) before I more or less got tired of writing the newsletter every month. So please do not feel I am putting this business down in any way shape or form. I am simply stating facts, perhaps in a slightly simplified way, but the two are quite different, as follows.

(1) the average total payout in NMSales (with breakage) is lower than 40%. You earn a small portion of that on an initial sale, because the rest is reserved to pay "upline". If it pays out on five levels then, 40% divided by 5 is 8% ... 6 levels is slightly less than 7% and so on ...

(2) In TradSales, that whole 40% would go in my pocket when I make a sale. So, comparison;

- if my new distributor bought $300 of samples to get going, and I earned 7% that would pay me $21 for all the time and effort, which seems not too great until you picture 10 people in your downline signing up orders of $300 each which earned you an upline override of $21 times 10 or $210. When your group grows to having 100 people do that in one week, that is $2100 per week in overrides without you doing a single thing, not needing to go to the office or anything for that matter, impressive!

- in TradSales I would earn $120 for that sale and my repeat sales would payout at the same rate. There is far more incentive to get the sale first time, as the cost of returning or meeting again is a cost against the sale (time and money).

I am not saying I like one over the other, they are different. But the bottom line is, the takeaway cost you $21 not $120. And in the end it looks as if it has worked out well.

I hope this over simplified explanation makes sense to those who are reading Mitch's posts. A part of what he does is naturally different than what most of us do, just because he is in a unique type of selling. - by Gold Calling
"I'd have to agree, MitchM, in rereading your post, I think my question doesn't make sense in reply to your post. So I guess maybe I was thinking about your posts in general, rather than that specific post. Or maybe it was a post earlier in this thread (but I'm just guess, I didn't go look)." -- Skip

I can appreciate that honest answer because it's the truth - nothing in my post would lead to that general question. I totally esteem in high regard sales as a profession when executed well with trust and respect and integrity. It's what I do.

Maybe a starting point in a conversation would be what in any of my posts would lead you to ask that question. How do you see something specifically or in general I've said that measured against what you believe would cause you to question my regard of sales?

MitchM
I guess it's this in a nutshell, MitchM:

You post a lot about trust and respect and integrity. Personally, I believe that most salespeople working today value trust, and have respect for their prospects, and have integrity (although there are some that do not).

But I get the sense that you think most salespeople don't value trust, don't have respect for their prospects, and don't have integrity.

Your thoughts? - by Skip Anderson
No true professional in ours, the greatest profession in the world, acts without integrity. There is simply no reason to be less than totally classy to earn a fabulous even obscene living. The same is true with Network Marketing, which is definitely part of the many direct sales industries.

There are doctors that will sell plastic surgery to people who actually need therapy (like Michael Jackson) and certainly do not require nor should have surgery, does that right-off the medical profession? There are accountants that pad their expense accounts with clients, does that mean all accountants are unethical? There are lawyers who charge for time not spent working on client accounts or for the portion of a telephone call that is not about business, does that make every lawyer without honor?

Those sales people I have met who I did not like because I knew or suspected them to have acted unscrupulously are the ones who are NOT the big time earners.

It is my belief that those who will mislead, lie or cheat during a sale are in the great minority, as with all other professions. So why do we spend so much time discussing that when we could be debating techniques/skills, attitude, learning and goals?

The bottom line in my opinion is; our industry in some circles is looked down upon. As a result many sales people are embarrassed to admit that they are in sales or, worse, somewhere between uncomfortable and humiliated to be one.

Want proof of the last sentence? These may seem a bit obtuse in this argument but ... Do stock brokers say they are in sales or that they are a stock broker? Do financial planners who sell mutual funds say they are in sales or a Financial Planner? Do real estate agents say they are professional sales people or that they are in real estate?

What can I say, except, there is nothing to be ashamed of. Let's start talking sales practice and stop worrying about the minority of unethical and manipulating sales people .... !!! - by Gold Calling
Network Marketing is like recruiting a volunteer army. You cannot conscript nor should you pressure, there is really not much benefit from the initial sale (unless the person selling is involved in front-end loading techniques, a practice I and dubious about to say the least). The real money is made when a "volunteer" goes out and gets repeat customers and more importantly recruits others. It is a business of duplication.
GC, I won't trade credentials with you on this, because obviously your thoughts on Network Marketing seem solid and founded on a comprehensive study.

I do think that successful network marketers are more into SPONSORING than recrutiing (as in yours and others' volunteer army analogy)---and there is a difference.

I had been a part of the direct sales industry at the time it made a dramatic shift toward MLM in the 70s. MLM, of course, had existed long before that. It had a significant spurt in the fifties when practices gave birth to accusations, some founded, as being pyramid schemes.

I never got involved, but I watched some people fail, and a few people make money. Ultimately, and as the industry grew, sometimes with multinationals behind it, the people who became successful were able to differentiate between recruiting and sponsoring. It was really the difference between selling and teaching.

That is not to say that successful people in MLM don't sell. They do. They sell, not only their product, but their vision. However, it is the training and teaching and duplication that keeps the wheels moving.

It was proven many times that even great sales people did not have what it takes to be a leader in network marketing (our boy Zig flopped miserably). But those with teaching skills, and often very limited sales skills, often did succeed. - by Joe Closer
Great sales people make great network marketers.

Brian Tracey was monstrous in MLM, that is just one example. I had a huge following too, 42,000 to be exact ... but we, yes I use the term "we" loosely, do not prefer network marketing for a very simple reason. There is no juice! The excitement level isn't there ... perhaps that is what happened to Ziglar, I would not know, as I have had no contact with him but I know how I feel.

These guys, Tracey and Ziglar, they were practicing multiple streams of income, as was I. And the Internet was new to us all. We were trail blazers. Look at me, I had opt-in permission marketing totally mastered before a single copy of the book Permission Marketing was sold!

This is fascinating but I doubt you have been there in a big way. Have you ever known what it was like t0 have 40,000+ newsletter subscribers, 4,400+ auto-responder users, 6,600+ fax-on-demand users and 16,000+ paying customers total, many of whom made you money many times? I have.

Ultimately, though this is an interesting discussion Joe, it has nothing to do with the thread. And I a loath to carry on this side-plot with you only because I feel like we are hijacking a thread that Mitch and Skip were leading.

My point of bringing up MLM was to reveal that Mitch - his experience, it is not in traditional sales. As a result, he does not know what it is like to be involved in multi million dollar big time closes. Nor does he know what it is like when the sale is on the line and the buyer looks at you, starring silently for full on 5 minutes after a closing question. Or 10 ... or more ... I have been on that hot seat and got the deal. Heck, he does not even know what it is like to close a $20,000 order!

Joe, no one can claim to be a leader in our industry until they are battle scarred. The is no substitute for experience (in MLM or TradSales). And one type of experience is nothing like the other, meaning, just because you are a hero in MLM does not mean you know B2B sales and the opposite is true too (this is your point more or less).

So, why debate with someone who simply has not been there? What can we learn? The purpose of this thread was to mention that Mitch will "turn down the sale". Why? Could it be that it is due to the fact that in MLM there is nothing in it without the recruitment happening? That was what I asked. And I make a point about this; we would not choose to do that in TradSales, as we are not hoping for a recruit, there is no other motivating factor. And for those reading this thread who are not MLM inexperienced they might not get it, that's all.

In addition, I make the point that there is little in value in discussing a technique in MLM within a sales practice forum. In an MLM Practice forum, fine, not here. Not unless there is or was an MLM board/section.

This is my story and I am sticking to it. - by Gold Calling

So, why debate with someone who simply has not been there? What can we learn? The purpose of this thread was to mention that Mitch will "turn down the sale". Why? Could it be that it is due to the fact that in MLM there is nothing in it without the recruitment happening? That was what I asked. And I make a point about this; we would not choose to do that in TradSales, as we are not hoping for a recruit, there is no other motivating factor. And for those reading this thread who are not MLM inexperienced they might not get it, that's all.
Excellent, GC!

Skip - by Skip Anderson
And I make a point about this; we would not choose to do that in TradSales, as we are not hoping for a recruit, there is no other motivating factor. And for those reading this thread who are not MLM inexperienced they might not get it, that's all.
There are often other "motivating" factors.

Friday morning I finalized a sale for $49,800. In my industry, that's a huge sale--one that many of my peers will never experience. I've been there before, so I don't dance in the end zone. The 16 grand which I pocket on that sale is indeed a motivating factor. But the pocket of influence I created with that client opens a door that is also a moitvating factor. So, in effect, there is a similarity with sponsoring a person into an MLM venue who could have access to a pocket of influence which that industry calls downline.

However, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, I was prepared to walk away from this sale if conditions were not met to my satisfaction. In the type of selling I do, it takes guts---and you need them. I don't think it takes guts to turn down the type of sale MitchM talks about. So---yes, GC, I agree that there are big differences.

Should MLM discussions be unwelcome on this forum? I think that is for Jeff to decide---not you or I. - by Joe Closer
"Why? Could it be that it is due to the fact that in MLM there is nothing in it without the recruitment happening?" - CG

Skip/GC - you probably misread my earlier post about making money in my business and your ignorance i.e. lack of understanding of the business accounts for what I just cut and pasted from your post.

Without recruiting anyone I've made a consistent $500 - $1,500 of monthly retail profit. Granted, that's peanuts to some folks and a fortune to others, but it requires no recruiting whatsoever. It's requires a direct sale as I described with Jeff.

But likewise, I can recruit day and night and without those recruited retailing products - selling products - neither they nor I make money from their activities. They can also recruit over and over and it means nothing.

Until a sal is made, we make no money- nothing. My business is selling, recruiting, and training - along with that comes marketing and promoting, advertising and prospecting multiple business activities many people simply cannot do as I do - too many hats to wear I suppose. It's a challenging business but so should every business have some challenges, right!
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"So, in effect, there is a similarity with sponsoring a person into an MLM venue who could have access to a pocket of influence which that industry calls downline." -- Joe

There sure is that similarity.

"However, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, I was prepared to walk away from this sale if conditions were not met to my satisfaction. In the type of selling I do, it takes guts---and you need them. I don't think it takes guts to turn down the type of sale MitchM talks about. So---yes, GC, I agree that there are big differences." -- Joe

You are right, Joe - not much guts passing up a small sale like that, maybe. BUT cumulatively, being prepared to walk away from a small sale or recruitment could have huge never-to-be know ramifications. Still, I'd rather work that way anyway - it's overall the best way to work for the greatest results and the best use of time as far as I'm concerned.

"Should MLM discussions be unwelcome on this forum? I think that is for Jeff to decide---not you or I." -- Joe

Direct sales, multi level marketing, network marketing is a viable and admirable business set-up these days - Mary Kay for one is a fine company with a great history of success. There are many others. I don't believe Jeff has a negative bias toward this template or way for doing business because in sales it is a strong business model. It may even grow stronger and more universally accepted over time. Look how franchising has changed from one mom and pop owning one to corporations owing multiple franchises.

Anyone here with any curiosity into other selling paradigms might want to learn what they can from what I do.

MitchM - by MitchM
I have removed my own post.

I will re-post my responses to Joe and Mitch after careful consideration. - by Gold Calling
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