Rapport building

I don't but apparently Gary does. I think this is fueled by his futile attempts to psychoanalyze my posts. :p -SalesGuy

That's seems to be an opinion based in fantasy.

In post number 76 (above) Agent Smith cited published information by Robert Dilts, who worked with B&D, that corroborates my description of the part that Dr. Milton Erickson's work played in developing what Bandler & Grinder labeled NLP.

I have read several books by various acolytes of Erickson. Those authors made it is clear that his work preceded the time that Bandler & Grinder became involved with him by at least 10 years.

"Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D" by John Grinder, Judith Delozier, and Richard Bandler was published in 1975." In that book B&D stated that they studied with Erickson for at least two years. They published a second, more comprehensive edition in 1977.

"Reframing: Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Transformation of Meaning" by Richard Bandler and John Grinder, in which they coined the phrase "Neuro-Linguistic Programming," was published in 1982.



-JacquesWerth

Did you read the first sentence of the post you quoted? It stated, "NLP was originated by John Grinder (whose background was in linguistics) and Richard Bandler ..."

In your post (#70) you claimed, "NLP was first developed by the world famous psychiatrist Dr. Milton Erickson..."

If there is any fantasy here it is all yours. ;) -SalesGuy

My challenge is that "taking reponsibility" anonymously is taking no reponsibility at all. -Gary Boye

You're posting on a public forum where the norm is a "User Name". I think you're barking up the wrong tree Gary. When in Rome... ;)

If you're interested in someone's identity why don't you send a PM or an email? -Agent Smith

If we cease to treat each other with Mutual Respect there is no reason to respond to those who won't maintain that standard.

A few participants in this discussion group attempt to dominate the group with their need to win arguments, to be "right." Almost all Internet discussion groups that have descended to that level have lost all but a few of the most vociferous members.

Then, they folded up and disappeared. -JacquesWerth

I just watched one forum almost fold up the tent and go home - it had become a circus of sideshows and two-bit barkers causing all kinds of commotion and discord - mostly the jokers and tent lifters taking a peak did nothing to add to discussions but rather found it to their liking to flip over tables and raise dust running down the midway - it became not a fun place to be.

A number of the posters with that mutual respect you mention, Jacques, got on the moderator who must have fallen asleep and asked for help. A couple of the trouble makers - they were more blatant than subtle and we're beginning to manipulate threads in dishonest ways - were banned and things began to improve.

But there were also those who had to win arguments and one upmanship appeared the reason they even showed up - they still post but are ignored more and more by those who would rather exchange ideas than play checkers.

That's my observation. -MitchM

Ah, the Silent Treatment. :)

I might fall into that group. :D All I ask is that you have enough respect for others to call a spade a spade. For instance Jacques your post about who first developed NLP. Milton Erickson did not first develop NLP.

For everyone's benefit then we best get along. :) -Agent Smith

Here is the post that you referred to.
Post # 70
NLP was first developed by the world famous psychiatrist Dr. Milton Erickson for treating severely disturbed mental patients. It is a valid technique when used by psychotherapists, teachers, and public speakers. It is also valuable for self-hypnosis.


Here is your response and my answer.
Post # 72:
Originally Posted by MagicMan
This statement is incorrect. NLP was created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder.[/size][/font]
------------------------
No, the term "Neuro-Linguistic Programming, "abbreviated "NLP," was coined by Bandler and Grinder after observing Erickson's methods for two years at his clinic in Arizona. Bandler and Grinder have proudly acknowledged Erickson as their source and mentor.
-------------------------

Plenty of evidence of the validity of these statements is available. Some of it was subsequently posted in this thread. That includes an abbreviated history of B&D's association with Erickson. You have chosen to ignore all of it in what seems like an narrowly focused attempt to prove that you are right.

I don't know why it is so important to you. I hope some of the other followers of this thread got something out of it. I didn't. I don't think you did, either. -JacquesWerth

I'm afraid you're batting zero Jacques. It takes a big man to admit when you're wrong. Go ahead... risk it!

I don't know, I've got this thing for truth and honesty. :rolleyes: -Agent Smith

I've studied this thread and also said up front I'm not a student of NLP but I can follow a line of thought - I read Jeff's posting on NLP and went to a web page with a brief history - Jacques is the only one who has posted with any intellectual integrity the lineage of development of NLP not to be right but to be accurate.

Thanks Jacques for not being evasive and for being precise sticking to the facts. -MitchM

Mitch, what are talking about? :eek: -Agent Smith

Like you said before Agent Smith, don't sweat it. There are three amigos on this forum that like to talk out their hats. I'll send you a PM to bring you up to speed. ;) -bridger480

Exactly what I posted, Agent Smith. Jacques is the only one who has offered documentation and resources relating to the development of NLP - that's the intellectual integrity I refer to - what more to say. -MitchM

Wow, talk about off the mark. :eek:

In post #83 I provided a direct quote with link from Robert Dilt's (highly reputable source) page that states, "NLP was originated by John Grinder (whose background was in linguistics) and Richard Bandler (whose background was in mathematics and gestalt therapy) for the purpose of making explicit models of human excellence." What's that, chopped liver?

In post #76 SalesGuy provides a link to NLP.com where Tad James's (highly reputable source) page states, "NLP was initially created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder, who began modeling and duplicating the "magical results" of a few top communicators and therapists." More chopped liver?

The only documentation and resources relating to the development of NLP that Jacques offered was a referrence to two books on the subject. No quotes, no page numbers, nothing!

Jacques I challenge you to provide one single quote from either of the books you referrenced that states "Milton Erickson first developed NLP". If the remarks are in the books this should be easy for you.

To make it worth your while, if you find a single quote in either of those books that supports your claim I will leave this forum immediately and never look back. -Agent Smith

I went back and realized you and SalesGuy had left quotes behind - I did miss that one, Agent Smith. No - neither is chopped liver - good sense of humor you have.

Nevertheless, Jacques has left us with quality references also. -MitchM

I have read the books he referrences and they "DO NOT" ever state that Milton Erickson first developed NLP! -Agent Smith

I can believe what you just posted, Agent Smith, and also believe what Jacques has posted - I see no discrepancy there. Just as I missed your quote and SalesGuy's quote, you need to go back and reread what Jacques has posted, Agent Smith - I think if you do that very carefully - I read you to be discerning in our conversations - you'll see why I can say what I say.

Do that and see what happens. -MitchM

That's an illuminating souorce of information, Agent Smith. It doesn't speak to me of so called bogus claims, perhaps differences of opinion, and validates the development of NLP as I've gotten it from the others posting here including Jacques.

What was codified according to your source really speakes to the progressive lineage I've commented on seeing here - and that validates my conclusions.

Thanks. -MitchM

People see what they want to see. :)

Mitch, Jacques and anyone else who is under the impression that Milton Erickson first developed NLP, do others a favor and do your homework before you start posting bogus information on a subject you know little or nothing about. -Agent Smith

I'll second that. Get real guys, this is stupid.

If you have access to information that supports Jacques' claims then post it for crying out loud. Put up or shut up! -SalesGuy

Hey Agent Smith - you've proven your own point about seeing what one wants to see. No where have I posted on this subject [I've posted on the subject of this inquiry, no specifics on NLP] nor have I said that Milton Erickson first developed NLP - you can't lump three guys together in having said the same thing with any kind of accuracy.

What I've posted is about how we arrive at the truth of statements and resources and the development of what was coined NLP from the codification of earlier work - as you pointed out - that's all that validated for me this pursuit of the historical lineage of this study.

In other words, this thread is a case study in how accuracy is arrived at if ever in a conversation online - so I'm just recording how I see the arguments presented here - not my study of NLP outside this thread and some other casual information. Otherwise, I have no point to prove or case to make about anyone or anyone's claims - I'm seeking to understand what's being addressed here in a dispassionate way.

I hope that helps you see more clearly what I've contributed - I believe I understand you but tell me if I don't. -MitchM

I did lump you together with Jacques, that is true and was not accurate. My apology.

I see your contribution in this thread as a support mechanism for Jacques' posts.

There has been an abundance of resources provided that do not support Jacques' claim yet you post that they validate Jacques' statements. If I was a gambling man I would bet that Jacques' could say the world was flat others, not unlike yourself, would rally to his cause.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with my point of view but I call it like I see it. :cool: -Agent Smith

I wouldn't suppport either Jacques or Gary just to make them right for whatever reasons - they can do that for themselves and neither needs me for support, Agent Smith. You and I apparently conclude different things from this thread - we're both calling it like we see it - I see evidence of support for what Jacques has posted while you don't.

Is it that people see what they want or something else or a combination of elements that filters in and out, that's what has me curious now which is a different topic.

Thanks. -MitchM

That's not an exercise I'm going to do. You're on you're own with that - from the entire discussion it's clear to me.

The best to you in your own self discovery.

What I will say as an example of development and accuracy [which has been my concern here] is that we say that a product we market - Classic - was developed by a Dr. Kalogris which is true. Nevertheless, he called it CTN and he did work on the formulation for roughly ten years. The final result was named Classic by someone else and it was also worked on by someone else who altered the flavor and consistency for blending.

Yet we still give credit to Dr. Kalogris for Classic.

There are some similarities there that I see - you may not - just as in music one group is given credit for developing a form called fusion or grunge or heavy metal yet that form can be traced back again.

Was Elvis the father of rock? Or was it Big Mama Thornton who wrote "Hound Dog." Or Carl Perkins or Chuck Berry?

I understand that Jacques is speaking of the development of NLP and the lineage from one discipline to another, etc.

That's it.

Do you not see any of this as obvious, Agent Smith? -MitchM

Thread closed. -Jeff Blackwell