Rapport building

I could use some help with rapport building skills. Besides pacing or mirroring what other ways would you recommend for building rapport? -Milton

I spent a couple of years in study - how to build rapport, how to be friendly, how to establish a relationship. What all that did was give me food for thought and practice - some of it I believe was valuable - but the entire experience was valuable in that it produced just the opposite of what I wanted which led to failure much of the time.

BUT I continued to be attentive to myself wondering why the failure. One of the reasons for failure was because I was becoming someone I didn't really know - and I know me very well. Also, I was trying to be like a TV show I grew up with in the 50s - "I Led Three Lives" which means I was becoming a Pretend Man. AND I was often a different kind of Pretend Man in different situations.

When multiple personalities emerge and you pay attention with the one you've always known well, you begin to wonder about what you're doing.

Also, I came in contact with a book which began to change my thinking and help me remove and recover from multiple personalities becoming a better me in communicating honestly and directly and clearly with people, something I'm just beginning to grasp and put to study in my life.

These basic life skills of recovery also began to become not only a return to a kind of innocent behavior one has in a playground as a kid but also an immediate response to the needs and wants of others in a profound way.

All of that changed what I understand rapport to be today. -MitchM

My first recommendation is to determine what the idea of "rapport" means to you. Put another way, when you write "building rapport" what is your desired outcome?

If, to you, "building rapport" means "building a relation of mutual understanding or trust and agreement between people" or something similar then my next recommendation is "take a sincere and genuine interest in your customers". -MagicMan

Curious..do you currently use pacing and mirroring as rapport building skills? If so, could you describe the process in terms of how you do that? I don't mean for you to define it. I'm more interested in what you actually do and how you do it. -Gary Boye

Curious..do you currently use pacing and mirroring as rapport building skills?

Yes. For pacing I avoid talking too slow or too fast depending on the customer.

For mirroring I will quite often, when appropriate, match posture or body position of the customer. Nothing weird of course. :) -Milton

So you're being a mime, Milton? I wonder if there's any contrary evidence - is all this a theory supported by some evidence? - that the reverse can be just as effective [effective meaning what, anyway] in these situations? -MitchM

I spent a couple of years in study - how to build rapport, how to be friendly, how to establish a relationship.

MitchM, in your yeasrs of study did you come across this information on pacing and mirroring? If you did and still have the impression that pacing and mirroring is "being a mime" then you might have just discovered an insight into your failure.

If you didn't, Simon says, "Read a good book on NLP" :D -Milton

I never came across that info, Milton, I heard of it only in the past couple of years on the Internet.

I used the wrong word - I meant mimic, not mime - but that had nothing to do with my failures, Milton. I wasn't practicing pacing or mirroring. There are other kinds of pretending besides pretending to need to cross your legs or to alter your voice or scratch your chin. -MitchM

I never came across that info, Milton, I heard of it only in the past couple of years on the Internet.

MitchM, NLP has been around since the 70's but I only became interested in the last year or so. I haven't developed many NLP skills yet but that will come in time. It looks like you understand how a book can change your way of thinking. You might check out a book on NLP.

What ways do you build rapport with your customers? -Milton

I don't attempt to build rapport. Rapport either happens immediately or not. -MitchM

I think that I have heard the terms pacing and mirroring used interchangeably in the past. You use them with separate meanings, I notice. I find that I do what you call pacing in certain situations--always quite consciously. However, I don't do it an an attempt to build rapport. I do it to change the tempo. It is a subtle way to alter the buying pattern. I'll do a pause in the middle of a sentence. Although I'm doing it intentionally, it's really just a speech pattern of mine--a manner of communicating.

What you call mirroring I think I do automatically sometimes--but not in posture or gestures. I tend to do it by altering my pattern of speech--but I don't become aware of it until afterwards. My client base over the years has been very diversified. I could be talking to a U.S. ambassador the same day I'm talking to a hard hat project manager on a construction site--and end the day talking to an interior designer or heart surgeon. Or--passing a pad back and forth with a prospect who is hearing impaired. If I'm good at all that, it's not for me a set of techniques--it's a blessing.

I'm excellent in one-on-one sales conversations--or in front of a group--but I don't give any thought to building rapport. If I say or do something that has that effect, it's because it's the real me in that particular role which is a role that's a big part of my life.

So--bottom line--although I'm very aware of the things you talk about--and have a working knowledge of NLP, I don't pursue those fields of study.

But I find them interesting and I enjoy your input--along with Herb Philbrick's. -Gary Boye

...or something similar then my next recommendation is "take a sincere and genuine interest in your customers".

I've added that gem to my list. Thank You. -Milton

What does "rapport" mean to you? -MagicMan

What does "rapport" mean to you?

"Rapport" to me means being on the same wavelength or in "sync" with the other person. "Building Rapport" to me means getting in sync or on the same wavelength as the other person. -Milton

With your desired outcome now defined you can start to notice on your own many different opportunities and tools to help you on your path. ;) -MagicMan

When I think of in "sync" or "being on the same wavelength" I think of the Beach Boy's song "Good Vibrations." I remember in the 70s we talked about being on the same wavelength with someone. In the 80s and 90s I'd hear people saying, "Know what I'm saying" and half way through that there'd be, "Yea, yea." in return.

By the mid 90s came "You feel me?" and the same "Yea, yea."

I often wondered if these people really did see "eye to eye" and "were on the same page" in agreement or just thought they were.

Being congenial isn't necessarily a building rapport strategy though it might go along with that. It's important to plan ahead. -MitchM

With your desired outcome now defined you can start to notice on your own many different opportunities and tools to help you on your path.

I actually believe I understand what you mean. Thank you again. :) -Milton

When you think of "rapport" what comes to mind? -MagicMan

A scatological mumble of cryptic sounds in a vernacular of rhythmic organization heavy on beat and tempo but lacking melody with lots of heads bobbing on a long and wobbly pier where ships come and go to work.

That's an image that comes to mind.

I think of a room full of people making small talk looking for clues to mortality that reveal more than they already know or are willing to admit - something as simple as the recognition that they are all in the same room seeking the same thing and just can't quite find it yet IT is what's happening in that moment - something from a Fellini film - the strangeness and universality of archetypical personas obscured by the moment - faces responding to faces.

That's another. -MitchM

...and now that rapport has a face what does it say? -MagicMan

The faces in the room speak in different tougues and interpret in many different ways the sounds they hear.

One I pass that has a face replies to my sound and asks me a question: " . . . and now that rapport has a face what does it say?"

That's it. -MitchM

...and from that rapport is established. :) -MagicMan

Yep!:cool:

That was fun ! Gotta go! -MitchM

Do you mean show a sincere and genuine interest in your customers? -Gary Boye

Mitch, in the spirit of being sincerely and genuinely interested, here's what I draw from your posts.

I see a man who takes more risks than he once did, is conscious of the fact that he does, and knows that he continues to grow, partially because of it.

I see and hear discussions on rapport building frequently. Risk and the projection of vulnerability are probably the two most important elements of rapport in human relations--yet they are rarely discussed. -Gary Boye

Your spirit of sincerity and genuine interest is evident in the questions and comments you make here, Gary - that's why you so often reply with insight into threads and questions that challenge us. Fearing risk less than in the past opens the door to surprises otherwise closed from experience.

Until you just mentioned Risk and the projection of vulnerability as important elements of rapport I hadn't formulated that into the context of rapport - but I see it now.

How important are these two elements to the sales process and how do they function, Gary?

[Grocho Marx? - what a clever word guy he was.] -MitchM

Actually he was kind of a slow learner and I had to spend a lot of time with him.

Strategically they are vital to the sales process--but the subject of rapport encompasses a bigger field than the movement of product. How do they function? Don't ask me. Ask Churchill, Bill Clinton, Miles Davis, Ronald Reagan, Johnny Cash, Jimmy Connors, Oprah, Frank Bettcher, Mother Theresa, Muhammed Ali, Jack Benny, Katie Couric, Sun Tzu, Bogart, Miyamoto Musashi......

.....and that's only mortals for starters. -Gary Boye

Risk and the projection of vulnerability are probably the two most important elements of rapport in human relations--yet they are rarely discussed.

Can you go into more detail about how these are the two most important elements of rapport? -Milton

You are too funny, Gary. AND I believe you have also consulted some of the gods.

One thought I have is that we'd need to define what's at risk and what it means to project vulnerability. Recently in a situation with friend and business buddy one of his decisions concerned me - I questioned his decision and felt uncomfortable confronting him with it.

I had to look at my own discomfort and first figure out why? From that I looked at the issue of my relationship to him and his relationship in himself and those who put their trust in him.

My conclusion was that he knows I'd only speak of things in his own best interest - there's total trust between us - and for my own integrity I had to confront him AND the real risk:

1. if I don't what does that speak to myself
2. if I don't what's the greater risk in being silent.

Rather than put myself at risk in being vulnerable to my own breach of personal integrity and potential internal conflict - I had to speak up.

So we talked freely - I told him why I had to share my thoughts with him, because his decision could put his confidence and authority at risk - and we left it with a deeper relationship between us.

[Another post just came in as I post this - this may lead in that direction as well as anything you have to say, Gary.] -MitchM

Gary and MitchM how important do you believe "rapport" is to personal relations? -Milton

Yes, I can. I've had many discussions about that with some people that are very close to me and who are also in sales. But I don't recall ever discussing it here in any detail.

Is this something you agree with? -Gary Boye

Is this something you agree with?

I don't know enough about what you're talking about to say that I agree. I don't even know if we're talking about the same thing. What does "rapport" mean to you?

I posted this earlier but it went to another page so I'll post it again; Gary and MitchM how important do you believe "rapport" is to personal relations? -Milton

Well, we're on a sales forum and I know I already answered that question when Mitch asked it. I said: "Strategically they are vital to the sales process." I was referring to the areas of rapport that I described as risk and appearance of vulnerability. So--I must think that rapport is pretty important.

Personal relations covers a lot of territory. Are you talking about sex, marriage, friendship, selling, getting along with the boss, teacher-student relationships, team-playing, peer relationships--what? I'd say rapport is important.

I'm trying to understand why you ask. Is it really a statement that might serve you better in the form of a statement? Risk it. -Gary Boye

Gary asks the question for clarification at least as well as I could. I've never thought of "rapport" in the context of personal relations - it sounds funny to me. But in those situations Gary mentions - marriage, etc. - if "rapport" means common goals, shared interests, afinity for things - I'd also agree it's important.

Also: "Curious..do you currently use pacing and mirroring as rapport building skills? If so, could you describe the process in terms of how you do that? I don't mean for you to define it. I'm more interested in what you actually do and how you do it." -- Gary to Milton

What say you? -MitchM

Gary I'm not understanding what you mean when you say, "Risk and the projection of vulnerability are probably the two most important elements of rapport in human relations." Can you go explain that a bit?

I'm also not sure that we are talking about the same thing. To me rapport means being on the same wavelength or in "sync" with the other person. "Building Rapport" to me means getting in sync or on the same wavelength as the other person. What does it mean to you? -Milton

Hi Milton - this could be an extremely important tread for some people following its rambling around - I just stepped in before Gary could reply - but read my last post and Gary's question of you: "Curious..do you currently use pacing and mirroring as rapport building skills? If so, could you describe the process in terms of how you do that? I don't mean for you to define it. I'm more interested in what you actually do and how you do it."

Answering that yourself and how it relates to your understanding of building rapport might reveal more to you than what me or Gary might say.

I'm sure Gary will have his own reply -MitchM

MitchM, I replied to Gary's question directly in post #5. -Milton

MitchM, do you too feel rapport is vital to the sales process? -Milton

I see your post #5 - I'd even replied to it - just got lost in this thread.

As we've talked about rapport in this thread, yes I do feel it's vital to the sale process. -MitchM

As we've talked about rapport in this thread, yes I do feel it's vital to the sale process.

MitchM, how would you define the term "rapport"? -Milton

Harmony, often resulting in open lines of communication. -Gary Boye

Harmony, often resulting in open lines of communication.

Can you go into more detail about how risk and the projection of vulnerability are the two most important elements of rapport (Harmony, often resulting in open lines of communication)?

What ways do you recommend for building rapport with customers? -Milton

"Harmony, often resulting in open lines of communication." - Gary - defining rapport

How harmony comes about is worth looking at - risking intimacy [if that's a risk, perhaps not risking vulnerability is the real risk if one wants to achieve harmony and sales success] and what comprises harmony. -MitchM

Milton, suppose I start with one example, and if we get anywhere, I'll follow up with some juicy ones.





Here's how you defined rapport:

"'Rapport' to me means being on the same wavelength or in "sync" with the other person. 'Building Rapport' to me means getting in sync or on the same wavelength as the other person."

Having defined it, and with MagicMan's worthwhile guidance on the subject, do you feel that you are in sync or on the same wavelength as me? That's a yes or no question--and certainly can be answered as such. I ask that because, hopefully, we'll have some chances to see what "risk" and "projection of vulnerability" look like. -Gary Boye

...do you feel that you are in sync or on the same wavelength as me?

Not yet. :) -Milton

I agree--we're not. You've offered a valid definition of rapport, I think. You've volunteered some information on pacing and mirroring that follows what people, who are up on the subject, know about it. And you're asking questions, perhaps in pursuit of information--but I don't know that for sure.

So--show me what risks you're taking on this thread. Show me what you have said about what your current level of understanding about the sales process is. There's people here that pour their hearts out. They talk about their struggles. They talk about their accomplishments--at great risk! They offer unconventional viewpoints. They challenge the majority. They admit that their web marketing is failing when they are supposed to be an expert on selling. Some even talk to strangers about their financial struggles.

Those are risks. And rapport happens. Not always agreement. But rapport.

And people get helped. Others share readily.

Are we starting to get in sync yet? Because I just risked your displeasure with my words. But its not like any money's at stake. -Gary Boye

Pick up the book "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carneige. It is an awesome resource. Obviously in the business world if you don't have the people skills, it doesn't matter what kind of product or service you have to offer. It's an easy read. Plenty of copies on Amazon.com that are used if money is tight. -msanti85

So--show me what risks you're taking on this thread. Show me what you have said about what your current level of understanding about the sales process is. There's people here that pour their hearts out. They talk about their struggles. They talk about their accomplishments--at great risk! They offer unconventional viewpoints. They challenge the majority. They admit that their web marketing is failing when they are supposed to be an expert on selling. Some even talk to strangers about their financial struggles.

For sake of discussion let's say that I am taking no risks. Now what? -Milton

Pick up the book "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carneige. It is an awesome resource. Obviously in the business world if you don't have the people skills, it doesn't matter what kind of product or service you have to offer. It's an easy read. Plenty of copies on Amazon.com that are used if money is tight.

Thanks msanti85. Just last night I thought about buying that book on Amazon. Now for sure I'm going to get it. What a coincidence. :) -Milton

That's the point. It's not for the sake of discussion. It's for the sake of rapport. Do you understand that I don't know if you are challenging what I described as the most important elements in sales--or--sincerely desiring advice on the subject?

If it's the first case, I have no interest in debating. If it's the second case, I have no interest in teaching stuff (for free) to someone who won't risk disclosure of what his level of understanding of selling is.

I don't mind throwing my initial thoughts on the table in reply to your original question. That's what a lot of people do here. But I'm not in the mood to blindly engage in conversation about a challenging concept that I'm aware of.

You know I did that once when I first started posting here. I really took my time to help another person who I thought was seriously interested. Long expository post. I got a reply of "Huh?"

I didn't know if it was a rhetorical question, a hiccup, or the start of cardiac arrest. I wish you the best, my friend. -Gary Boye

If it's the second case, I have no interest in teaching stuff (for free) to someone who won't risk disclosure of what his level of understanding of selling is.

Are you asking what I know about selling? Was that the question? -Milton

That wasn't a question. -Gary Boye

That wasn't a question.

I we weren't already I'm pretty sure we're not on the same page now. You were saying that risk and the projection of vulnerability are the two most important elements of rapport. That was the first time I had ever heard that and am interested in finding out what you mean. Would you consider clarifying what you meant? -Milton

Projection of vulnerability is allowing yourself to be perceived in the eyes of a prospect as having very human vunerability. That could mean a lot of things, even neediness, or exposure to criticism. As humans, we are all vulnerable, although our sales offers can be invulnerable. To allow pride, retentive behavior, or posturing to hide our humaness is counterproductive. To be open and radically honest are qualities that are attractors. They uncover that which you call rapport--dramatically.

Risk in constructive human relationships, and in selling, comes from honesty and openness. It often means saying things that very few people would be willing to say in a selling situation out of fear of being rejected--or out of lack of understanding of what the very best do and how they communicate. -Gary Boye

Gary what ways do you recommend for building rapport with customers? -Milton

There's a thesis in that worthy of lots of expansion, Gary - I like the way you put it. Spending a lot of time with grand girls three, five and six over the past six years has taught me a lot - they're definitely not afraid to take risks and project their vulnerability. -MitchM

I can't remember ever recommending a way to build rapport. Rapport is something I am very much aware of. Building rapport does not occupy my thoughts. I rarely encounter a selling situation where rapport is in need of repair.

I seek to identify conditions of mutual trust and respect--which is mildly related. I'm usually quite successful at determining those conditions and would not move forward if I recognized their absence.

Why are you asking me all of these questions? I feel like a finalist in a Miss America pageant. -Gary Boye

HaHa LOLOL - too funny, Gary! Seeking to identify conditions of mutual trust and respect - mildy related! Only mildly?

Now I'm curious too - Milton, why quiz Gary and what's happened to everyone else on this thread? -MitchM

Why are you asking me all of these questions?

Possibly because you've been kind enough to respond. Thanks! :) -Milton

Now I'm curious too - Milton, why quiz Gary and what's happened to everyone else on this thread?

Have you been following this thread? -Milton

What indicates I haven't?

That's not a serious question, is it? I've been a reoccuring voice on this thread - I wonder if you've read it. I only missed one post #5 - but you pointed that out.

I don't understand the answer "why question" to be "because you reply" to be more than either superficial or evasive - maybe "What's your purpose in asking for a definition of this" is a better question.

Maybe the answer is, "Just to know what you think?"

I don't have an answer here for anything - just more questions. -MitchM

That's not a serious question, is it?

Yes. That was a serious question. You had asked me:

Milton, why quiz Gary and what's happened to everyone else on this thread?

First, I started this thread asking about rapport building skills. Second, I did not understand Gary's response so I've asked for clarification.

As for everyone else, who "else" are you referring to?

I don't understand the answer "why question" to be "because you reply" to be more than either superficial or evasive - maybe "What's your purpose in asking for a definition of this" is a better question.

I did not interpret the question as "What's your purpose in asking for a definition" but I can answer that question too. Here is that answer:

My purpose is to get on the same page as Gary. To interpret his answers in the same light that he is answering.

Does that still sound superficial or evasive? -Milton

MagicMan has been the only other poster on the thread you started, Milton - I guessed more had posted but I was wrong. -MitchM

Milton is a very intelligent person who chooses not to reveal much about himself--assuming Milton is a guy. He may be in sales--if so he has a relatively good understanding of the process. He may not be in sales--in which case he seeks information pertaining to his own field of study.

Milton has a working knowledge of Neuro-Linguistic Progamming. He starts the thread with the use of two terms that are not on the lips of every salesperson here. They are NLP related. Milton may be an expert on NLP. Perhaps, "Milton" is not his name, but a playful choice of pseudonym after The Milton Model in NLP, named after Milton Erickson, pioneer of hypnotherapy.

Maybe he's writing a play, similar to Glengarry Glen Ross--about sales. If so, I want royalties and I want Brad Pitt to play my part, and I want to get the girl at the end.

In any case, I'm glad I could help. And I mean that. -Gary Boye

In any case, I'm glad I could help. And I mean that.

You have been very helpful. Thank you again. :) -Milton

Quote:

Have you ever met a perfect stranger and just hit it off? Finding plenty to talk about, you almost felt as if you had met before. It just felt right. So comfortable were you in talking about practically anything that you lost track of time. You developed such a strong bond with that person that you knew what he was going to say. Everything clicked between the two of you and you felt very close to this person. It might have been a physical attraction, or it might have just entailed being on the same wavelength. You felt your ideas were in sync and you enjoyed your time with each other. This is rapport. When there is rapport, we can differ in our opinions with someone else but still feel a connection or bond with that person.

The quote above is an exerp from Kurt Mortensen's book, "Maximum Influence". You might check it out. ;) -SalesGuy

For everyone who is curious, here is An Introduction To NLP: Rapport
by Tad James, M.S., Ph.D., Certified NLP Master Trainer -MagicMan

"For the sake of contrast please remember a time when you were accessing your feelings, in a feeling state, or calm and quiet. Was there a time when you were in this state, and perhaps you can recall being with another person who was in an excited (visual) mode. Do you remember the feelings in your body when that happened?
Or can you remember being in a really excited (Visual) mode, and talking to someone in a real slow (Kinesthetic) state. Remember how it drove you crazy waiting for the other person to catch up?

Please, remember that neither of these modes of operation is wrong, they're just how people operate. To be a master communicator, you will also need to keep in mind that you will communicate best with people, when you employ their primary modality.

Too often, however, communication takes place in a system where people are unconsciously mismatching modalities. So the first major element of rapport is to match the modality the person is in." - quote


This is my first reading of any segment of NLP although I studied linguistics four decades ago and more recently - in the end of the last decade - had the concept of mirroring behavior explained to me.


What I've realized about myself is the opposite of the above is how I feel meaning that when I'm excited [or quick] and someone else is calm [or slow] I enjoy the contrast - I'm stimulated by it. And the opposite is also true.


Do I conclude any generalization or extract any law from my singular experience? Do I conclude nothing more than a personal response? Do I assume or research more people respond to matching rather than mismatching? -MitchM

The key here is coming across "natural" versus "unnatural" or "weird". :D -Agent Smith

NLP was first developed by the world famous psychiatrist Dr. Milton Erickson for treating severely disturbed mental patients. It is a valid technique when used by psychotherapists, teachers, and public speakers. It is also valuable for self-hypnosis.

The term “Rapport Building” is unique to salespeople. To them it means manipulating a prospect’s mind in order to get the prospect to like them and to feel comfortable with them, in order to sell them something.

Rapport Building is based on ancient sales “wisdom” that says “People want to buy from people they like,” and “People want to buy from people like them.” While neither of these statements have much actual validity, most salespeople believe them at some level.

Typical conversational techniques for Building Rapport are:
Commonality – Find and enthusiastically discuss areas of interest that you and the prospect have in common.
Approval – Approve of everything that the prospect says and does. Laugh at their jokes.
Flattery – Tell the prospect that everything that he/she does, says, and is, is truly wonderful.
Charisma – Be the smartest and most charming person they have ever met. Be their new best friend.
Fawning, Enticing, Giving, Begging, Kissing Butt, and Changing your personality to match theirs are other ways of Building Rapport.

NLP, as utilized by salespeople, is a physical manifestation of rapport building as describe above.

Most salespeople know how to do Rapport. Very few of them can pull it off without being regarded as insincere manipulators. -JacquesWerth

This statement is incorrect. NLP was created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. -MagicMan

No, the term "Neuro-Linguistic Programming, "abbreviated "NLP," was coined by Bandler and Grinder after observing Erickson's methods for two years at his clinic in Arizona. Bandler and Grinder have proudly acknowledged Erickson as their source and mentor.


Furthermore, High Smith was the first trainer to be certified by B&D to train and certify new NLP trainers. Smith has publicly stated that it is a mistake to utilize NLP in sales. -JacquesWerth

Jacques, the development of NLP has been well documented. Please check your facts. Thank you. -MagicMan

http://www.nlpschedule.com/whats-nlp.html has some information that reads accurate and factual. I'm sure Jacques has his sources and resources I'm not famililar with other than this link with some general information specific to the development of NLP.

I'm not a student of NLP - it's not something I've studied - I'm just interested in the historical facts here as I have no other point to prove or ax to sharpen. -MitchM

"Coined", but Bandler's and Grinder's attempts to trademark the term failed as neuro-linguistic programming was viewed as generic. My understanding was that B & D largely modeled their concept from Erickson and to a lesser extent, a handful of others. A search on Wickepedia using the key words "Erickson Bandler and Grinder" appears to substantiate Jacques' post.

I did some reading on the subject a couple of years ago and the name Dilts comes to mind. MagicMan, what part did he play? Did he advance the study? -Gary Boye

Gary I did not find anything on Wiki that substantiates Jacques' post. Especially this one:
-bridger480

MagicMan and the others are correct, your assertion is incorrect. :o -SalesGuy

I'm an outsider to all this insider and well researced information - NLP isn't something I've studied, I've read one online site about it and that's it. So I don't have any particular point to prove.

One thing I know in general is that assertions are sometimes difficult to validate with hard evidence and ghat facts vs opinion as well as interpretation also produce interesting dialogues in so called correct and incorrect conclusions.

The only thing I can do as an outsider to all this is be open minded and curious so the objective truth relating to the development of NLP might be rendered. I assume that is the only motive of everyone who has posted on this topic - yet not everyone has offered something to back their assertions or counter assertions. -MitchM

Mitch, the onus is not on those who have responded to disprove Jacques' assertion, it is on Jacques to prove his assertion. Period. -SalesGuy

I think differently than you do, SalesGuy. The onus or responsibility is on everyone who asserts something to come up with the basis of their assertion.

You say something you claim is a fact SalesGuy and I challenge it of course the onus is on you but if I challenge it I'm also going to present my case.

A few have countered Jacques with their resources - but not everyone. And Jacques also can respond.

What interests me the most SalesGuy isn't one or the other trying to prove someone right or wrong - that's sophomoric - it's who is engaged in an exercise to enlighten and illuminate and learn - in other words, who is curious and open minded and wants to uncover the history of NLP, if that's important to them. If it's not important and pure assertions and counter assertions are the extent of someone's interest, that's okay too.

BUT for those who consider the facts to be important, the onus or responsibility is on all of them. The onus is on us all! -MitchM

A person makes a statement that might as well have been "The sun rises in the west" and the onus falls on those who disagree? You're right, we do think differently. :rolleyes:

Here is a link to a reputable source on the subject: http://www.nlp.com/about-nlp/whatnlp.html -SalesGuy

Robert Dilts was a member of the original Bandler/Grinder class at U.C. Santa Cruz.

His contributions to the advancement of NLP continute to this day. -MagicMan

So the onus is on me now to come up with my source SalesGuy. I could, but I won't because it isn't important to me. I'll leave it at - we respond differently.

"What interests me the most SalesGuy isn't one or the other trying to prove someone right or wrong - that's sophomoric - it's who is engaged in an exercise to enlighten and illuminate and learn - in other words, who is curious and open minded and wants to uncover the history of NLP, if that's important to them. If it's not important and pure assertions and counter assertions are the extent of someone's interest, that's okay too." -- MitchM

And resources can uncover as much as they can cover, you know that too. -MitchM

Well, it's an abyss. But I'm casually attempting to uncover what the exact importance of the history of the advancement of NLP is in relation to Who Was Who.

Were Bandler and Grinder more credible than Erickson? Is that the issue here?

Does anybody on this thread actually, and as an act of volition, use NLP in their work in sales? MagicMan appears to me to be the most knowlegable and credible on the subject. But maybe there are others. I get the idea that Bandler and Grinder and Erickson aren't going to be posting here. So you NLPers--you're all we've got. -Gary Boye

"NLP was initially created by Richard Bandler and John Grinder, who began modeling and duplicating the "magical results" of a few top communicators and therapists. Some of the first people to be studied included Hypnotherapist Milton Erickson, gestalt therapist Fritz Perls and family therapist Virginia Satir." -Tad James, M.S., Ph.D., Certified Master NLP Trainer

I noticed a new article posted here today about NLP and business. I can say that as an act of volition I use these skills listed in that article (among others):

Out of curiosity, do you feel these NLP skills are worth pursuing Gary? -SalesGuy

Would it be too much to ask for you guys to post your sources? -bridger480

Yes. I would admire the pursuit of those skills whether it was through NLP or another field of study.

I have read a few books and articles on NLP, and have had some discussions--but it is not something in which I can claim any expertise. I'm drawn to the discussion described as "Sensory acuity". I have that as perhaps my greatest strength among personal strengths and weaknesses in selling. I have always described as a "third eye". In other words, I know what's going on in a sales conversation. It's a powerful skill, but I have no idea how it was ever developed in me. And--I don't have enough knowledge of NLP to know how it can be taught. On the rapport issue, I think I might be coming from a different place than others here. I think of "connecting" as a key ingredient in life. I've connected well in life with relationships and loads and loads of customers--so I can't look at rapport as something I need to build or change myself because of. The biggest challenge or weakness I face, and perhaps a lot of others face, is that the truth changes. That makes it very important to live in the present and see things for what they are today

But, again, yes--if somebody was willing to accept the challenges of learning NLP and using the concepts--I see it as something of value based on my limited knowledge. In my own case, I have four or five areas of study that I pursue with either deep interest and passion. I can't fit any more in. -Gary Boye

SalesGuy, I'm not debating the historical development of NLP - my posts have had to do with observations of this discussion. There's no source to my saying: I believe the onus of proof is on he who makes an assertion and he who asserts against it. That's an opinion, how I respond to things.

In other words, if you say the earth is flat I would challenge you to prove it as well as give you my reasons for asserting it's not flat.

Gary and Jacques can speak for themselves - but I've got nothing to resource in this conversation - again, I know very little about NLP.

I may be wrong, but I believe from what I've read here that there are some interpretations of linage in the development of NLP as well as historical facts which may or may not come under the title of NLP.

Tom Wolfe was the forerunner of Gonzo journalism. Hunter Thompson coined the phrase but that too came from other sources and one could also say he took his style from Tom Wolfe - but the influence of William Burrough also comes into play. But way before that come the Dada and Sureal artists and other strands into the past fifty years including Paul Klee - well, before him Picaso, Miro . . . and so on in these art forms all playing into the times and influencing writers.

That's the tip of the CulturalBerg - go back to Jean Cocteau then back this way to Henry Miller - all of the above in writing and painting, in murals and other art forms, were cutting & pasting and putting classical art into new forms with realism being torn apart and reshaped into THeMoment and autobiographical first person recording of experiences as fact and fiction became blended into new forms of expression.

BUT in writing alone all this can be traced again into the journalism and literature of the 18th century with Boswell, to name one.

So SalesGuy, either one is here seeking illumination and intellectual play or something else. -MitchM

If there is any question or varied interpretation of linage in the development of NLP it is only within this thread. If you doubt my claim I challenge you to find evidence outside of this forum to the contrary.

In my case it is something else. I consider it incredibly irresponsible for a member to post such an inflamatory claim.

This is compounded by the fact that this member did not provide any support for his claim and as of yet has not responded to other members posts which do contain evidence from reputable sources to the contrary. -SalesGuy

Agreed, that is irresponsible.

For the record, I do use NLP in my daily life which includes Selling. -Agent Smith

I totally agree with SalesGuy's use of the word "inflammatory" to describe Jacques' posts on the origin of NLP.

"Inflammatory" means rousing excitement, anger, etc.. Jacques' posts seems to have roused anger on this thread.

There is such a thing as displaced anger. It is difficult for me to believe that the anger and/or excitement here is because someone holds the view that a certain Bandler and Grinder have been slighted by Jacques' original post which seems, as evidenced by the generous number of quotations, to be in error.

I don't believe that the misinformation is the reason for the anger which "inflammatory" alludes to. I believe it is something else--rightly or wrongly.

I personally can't relate to anger on a forum about selling. I will ignore the posts of some people, but not out of anger. I can't take this stuff that serious--I have a living to make and a life to live.

So--with regard to JW's posts that roused anger--how about putting the real reasons on the table?

P.S. I didn't know how to spell inflammatory either. I learned just today. -Gary Boye

I didn't read any one post as "angry" but you did. Which one(s)?

I am of the opinion that posting bogus information as fact on a public forum is irresponsible. -Agent Smith

[quote=Agent Smith]I didn't read any one post as "angry" but you did. Which one(s)?
QUOTE]
Shawn, I was agreeing with SalesGuy. "Inflammatory" means rousing excitement, anger, etc..

I felt that I detected the same anger that he must have, when he used the term. Unless he didn't mean inflammatory and just used the wrong word. Sometimes I do that--I guess we all do. I can't speak for him. But even he didn't mean inflammatory, I'll still suggest that it was. Just a gut feeling.

I don't know who many people are here let alone be able to look at their faces. So, nobody knows for sure who is angry (or sad) and who is just jerking people's chains. Not something I'll lose much sleep over.

Would you believe heated discussion? -Gary Boye

[quote=Gary Boye] I know what Gary means and asking for reasons sounds reasonable to me.

I don't know why anyone would get heated from CyberWords keyed in by strangers on an Internet forum. I've seen it happen on other forums and it's something I just don't get. I've been emotionally attached to a thread from time to time and that caused some strong feelings which boardered on anger - but looking back at them the cause was never what someone else had said or not said.

Anyway, I don't see that there's any reason either to believe that someone made an incredibly irresponsible and inflamatory claim. Nor can I take for granted when one person tells me that the historical development of NLP is cut and dry outside this thread and there's no room for interpretation of factual information that this is true.

Like I've said, I am not a student of NLP so I'm not is any discussion about it - the discussion I'm in in this thread is how to arrive at the truth of something in a dispassionate and unprejudiced start of mind. If I really wanted to arrive at in regards to NLP, I could do my own research and not rely on statements and accusations here. -MitchM

When I looked up the word I found: "arouse or excite feelings and passions". There was nothing about rousing anger.

If you have any questions about why I choose a certain word Gary feel free to "ask". You don't have to guess. I promise, I don't bite. ;)

I agree with Agent Smith that, "...posting bogus information as fact on a public forum is irresponsible." I view that as inflammatory in that it is bound to arouse or excite feelings and passions by those who know otherwise.

You, Gary, and Mitch have stated that you don't know otherwise so it makes sense that you don't share the same feelings and passions. Perhaps if members here were to pass on bogus information about Gary Gagliardi's works you might better empathize with some of the member's posts. By the way, wasn't it you Gary who in earlier threads took offense at other member's posts about Jacques' works? -SalesGuy

Gary Gagliardi is a translator and interpreter of Sun Tzu. It is a field of study for me for many years. I have studied all of the in print English translations of Sun Tzu's work--and some out of print. Most do not agree fully with Gary Gagliard's interpretation. I value the other authors' work although I am empathetic to Gary's work. The other authors' works to the contrary have aroused neither anger nor passion in me. They have given me a different slant and helped my understanding of a very complex field of study.

Selling can be a complex field of study and human behavour even more so. As you know yourself, Bandler himself has taken issue with some of the misinterpretations of his work. In his case, I could understand if he got passionate or angry. I am not condemning anger or passion. I am merely interested as to why Jacques' post with incorrect information has inspired such passion that the word "bogus" is being used, albeit anonymously. I think that is a fair and appropriate question. SaleGuy, you have in the past flippantly refused to answer a question. I don't worry about you biting me even if you were three feet in front of me. I'm just concerned that when I take the time to ask a fair and honest question of you, it will go for naught.

So the question is: Why does this stir you up so much to the point of using words like "bogus"? I ask that question because I think you are hedging on giving the real reason. Nobody else bites here either. -Gary Boye

This is really quite simple Gary. Passing bogus information on a public forum is irresponsible. Your recognition of that simple truth isn't required. :) -SalesGuy

Once again you won't answer a simple question which was: Why does this stir you up so much to the point of using words like "bogus"?

You indicated that you could be asked questions and I thought that meant you were now willing to answer. Risk it, for goodness sake--you're posting anonymously! -Gary Boye

Read it again Gary, that was my answer. Pay special attention to the word "irresponsible". -SalesGuy

I'll take responsibility for being the person that started this query by using the word "Bogus". What is your challenge with that word as it is used in this thread? -Agent Smith